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Author Topic: Troubleshooting needed for Notifier AFP-200 system  (Read 10528 times)
kyle_engineer
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« on: Nov 16, 10, 10:58PM »

I'm having trouble figuring out a few errors that my Notifier AFP-200 is giving me. The manual is not very good at defining anything, or telling me what's really needed to fix it, so I figured I'd give this a shot.

The longest running error that I've been getting, is:

"TROUBL RELAY
A/C SHUTDOWN AC-1
Z00 INVALID REPLY
 [TIME & DATE] M41"

Now I know where the relay is that's addressed M41, but I don't know what "INVALID REPLY" is supposed to mean. Do I need a new relay? Or does the connection need to be fixed? I just don't know, and there's nothing in the manual about these different error types.

The other is:

"TROUBL BELL CIRCUIT
PANEL CIRCUIT NO. 1
Z00 OPEN CIRCUIT
 [DATE & TIME] B01"

With this I'm totally lost. From what I've been able to find in research, a "Bell Circuit" is any bell or siren. But I'm not sure what it means by "open circuit." Is there a faulty connection, or is a bulb blow in one of the siren/strobe combos? I'm not sure. Also, it appears that they are not addressable, so how would I find out which one is which?

Any help that anyone can give me is greatly appreciated.

Sincerely,
kyle_engineer
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SirFlannel
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« Reply #1 on: Nov 17, 10, 12:41AM »

The Invalid reply means it's not getting the response it is wanting. It could be a bad device or a broken wire. Get a voltmeter, and check the voltage at the panel, then at the relays SLC terminals. If there is a similar reading at each, it is probably the relay.
   The Bell circuit, is one of the Bell outputs on the power supply at the bottom of the can. Output number 1 has an open circuit. There is supposed to be an EOL resistor at the end of that line of NAC devices, and the panel cannot see it. Try activating just that circuit (you can unplug the other NACs and set off the alarm, or I think you can activate that NAC by itself in the menu), find the farthest horn that is going off and start there looking for broken wires or bad devices.
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kyle_engineer
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« Reply #2 on: Nov 17, 10, 10:08PM »

OK. So I got the first error, invalid reply, handled. But the Bell Circuit is still erroring. All I did was strip the leads on the relay (M41) and duct detector connected to it (including the EOLR). Now the system is reading all systems normal most of the time, but every now and then, it errors for about 40 seconds. I'm not quite sure why the error would be detected, then be reported as not being a problem anymore, then 2 hours, it would be a problem again. It's a little confusing to me. Do you know of any good on-line resources to help get this figured out?

BTW, Thanks a lot for helping me one this!  Smiley

Sincerely,
kyle_engineer
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SirFlannel
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« Reply #3 on: Nov 18, 10, 06:48AM »

Ok, if the bell circuit is coming and going, it's probably a bit of corrosion in one of the connections. The system has a tolerance when it comes to the EOL resistance. The number I've heard is 10%, so if the EOL is 2000 ohms, then the system should be ok with anything from about 1800 to 2200 ohms. Corrosion at a terminal can alter the resistance on the circuit, length of wire, size, heck even the temperature can change the resistance a little. Corrosion is the biggest one, and if there's a horn on the outside of the building (required in my area), the seal could have degraded over time, water gets in, wire corrodes, and bell fault. That's the kind of thing I would check for. It's possible also that the electronics inside a horn or strobe can be failing, but that usually would be a permanent fault. Hope that helps
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kyle_engineer
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« Reply #4 on: Nov 19, 10, 12:30AM »

Thanks it does! And I'm going to look and see what I can find. In the mean time, is there a way to disable it so that it's not alarming a supervisory warning every 2 minutes? Cause I have one of the ACSs in the reception of our museum, and it's really bad public relations to have the alarms going off so much.

Thanks for helping BTW.

Sincerely,
kyle_engineer
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SirFlannel
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« Reply #5 on: Nov 19, 10, 06:17AM »

Normally, on a constant trouble, once you hit the acknolwedge button, it stops beeping. Unfortunately, since this one comes and goes, everytime there's a "new" trouble, that will cause the system to start beeping again, even though it's another one just like the 40,000 before it. Each "new" trouble must be signaled. You can't just take the wire off, that's compromising safety, you could try to find the EOL and take it off, but that will make troubleshooting a lot harder. Not sure if your AHJ would like that much, either. The last option is the safest from a function standpoint (not disconnecting or bypassing any horns), still consult your AHJ to let him know what you're doing and about how long.
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rcifire
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« Reply #6 on: Nov 19, 10, 09:27AM »

Thanks it does! And I'm going to look and see what I can find. In the mean time, is there a way to disable it so that it's not alarming a supervisory warning every 2 minutes? Cause I have one of the ACSs in the reception of our museum, and it's really bad public relations to have the alarms going off so much.

Thanks for helping BTW.

Sincerely,
kyle_engineer


Is it a "supervisory signal" or a trouble signal?

If it's a "trouble" NAC issue, I agree with what's been said about the troubleshooting procedures.  If it's a "supervisory" signal, you still could have an issue with your duct detector (M41) as they are allowed to report as a supervisory and not alarm, at least in my area.

Hope this doesn't confuse the situation.......... Smiley
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kyle_engineer
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« Reply #7 on: Nov 22, 10, 09:57PM »

Ok. Do you know what the EOL resistance should be? Cause one resistor I found on one of the outside horns was only 41.7K OHMs, and I think it's supposed to be more, but I'm not sure. Do you know where to find this info?

Sincerely,
kyle_engineer
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SirFlannel
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« Reply #8 on: Nov 23, 10, 11:08AM »

Well, the resistor that supervises the actual NAC circuit is a 2.2K resistor (2200 Ohm). However, if there's a CMX module hooked up to sound the horns, that uses a 47,000 Ohm resistor. PM me if you want a copy of the install guide so I can point out what I see in the wiring
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kyle_engineer
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« Reply #9 on: Nov 23, 10, 02:14PM »

Ok. Well here's the layout of my system.

I have the Notifier AFP-200 panel, I have a FCPS-24S6, and a Wheelock DSM 12/24.

I found the "Panel Circuit No. 1" which is the #1 slot on TB2 (as described in the operation manual). I found this by removing one of the resistors in the #4 slot, and noticing that the panel then errored:

"TROUBL BELL CIRCUIT
PANEL CIRCUIT NO. 4
Z00 OPEN CIRCUIT
 [DATE & TIME] B04"

I thought that maybe TB2 was the "Panel Circuit." I took a 4.5K Ohm resistor and put it in place of the leads going to the #1 slot on TB2 (for the sake of simplicity I'm going to call this cable "C1") and the original Troubl Bell Circuit error went away. Anyway, I tested the resistance of C1 compared to the cable in the #2 slot, and it was cosmic. The cable in the #2 slot (C2) was at 4.5K Ohm average, and C1 was reading at 202.3K Ohm stably. The only problem I'm running into now, is that the C1 cable goes from the AFP-200 panel, and into the Wheelock DSM 12/24 module, and then over the the FCPS-24S6, before it's broken into 4 separate NAC lines out. I found that one of the NAC lines (V4) read at 4.9K Ohm while the others read at 4.5K Ohm, so there's obviously a little more resistance on that line (in fact, a little more than 10% difference). But, what I noticed, is that if all of the NAC lines are properly connected to the FCPS panel, then the resistance on C1 is reduced to 4.5K Ohm, and the error goes away, but if I disconnect any one of the negative NAC leads, then the resistance jumps back up to 200+K Ohm.

So really, do you think it's a problem with the FCPS panel, or something on the NAC line V4, or maybe a different line?
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Ok Alarm Guy
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« Reply #10 on: Nov 23, 10, 02:39PM »

It seems like it could be the wire on that nac shorting to ground. Try removing the wire from the nac and meter each conductor to something grounded, see if you read any resistance on one of the conductors that way. If that doesn't work go to the last module before it goes to the device and meter there as a process of elimination.
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kyle_engineer
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« Reply #11 on: Nov 26, 10, 07:41PM »

My biggest problem right now is that I don't know where the circuit of NACs is that isn't working. I can't really set the alarms off during business hours, because we do have a public museum here, and I can't set them off after hours, because of the local sound ordinance. I'm been trying to trace them using a line tracer, but it's not too fruit full since everything is interconnected so much. I know in some of the literature I've read that when the alarm is going off, pressing the "Alarm Silence" button is supposed to turn off the horns, but keep the strobes going. However, I don't know how this would work with our combos; Because we don't have any stand-alone horns, they are either strobes or combos. So really I need to know how to find our which line is the one with the error on it. I know that B01 is the source, but the B01 line (like I mentioned in my last post) goes into a Wheelock DSM 12/24, and then into the FCPS 24S6 panel, before being split into 4 separate lines. Out of these 4 lines, 3 of them read at 4.5K Ohms average, and one of them reads in at 4.9K Ohm average. This would make me think that the one reading 4.9K Ohm might be causing the problem, however, I'm not sure. When I check B01 on the AFP-200 panel, it reads 200+K Ohms when it errors, and then 4.5K Ohm average when it's operating normally.

I know that none of the system has been changed, and it's been working fine for the past 5+ years, so I'm not sure how it could be a short to ground; But I do understand that it could be a faulted EOL resistor or a dead NAC. None of the relays or NAC or detectors I have seen so far have even been grounded, and since it's a 2-conductor system, there's no shared ground.

The one thing that I noticed, is that if I disconnect one of the NAC lines coming out of the FCPS board, the AFP errors the same thing, and the resistance is the same. Plus, when the error does occur, there is a click sound from the FCPS board, which sounds like an on-board relay clicking on-and-off.

My personal best guess is that either the EOL resistor or an NAC is causing the circuit to open, which is tripping some kind of relay on the FCPS, which is totally breaking the circuit. I'm not particularily educated on these devices, other than what I've had to study because of this problem, but that seems to make sense to me. I'm going to post a picture of the wiring soon so that you can see it and maybe get a better idea of what's happening. In the meantime, if you know of any good ways to determine which lines of NACs is causing the error (ideally without setting off the alarm, or at least doing it silently) I would really appreciate the advice.

Hope to hear back from someone soon.

Sincerely,
kyle_engineer
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SirFlannel
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« Reply #12 on: Nov 27, 10, 08:05AM »

Ok... you said it goes from the NAC2 output to a bell booster (FCPS). Are there any faults on the booster? There are seperate lights on the FCPS that can tell you if there is a problem there. The lights should be located on the circuit board in the center near the bottom. A fault in the FCPS (to include low batteries) would create a trouble on whatever NAC it's attached to. I have traced wire for hours only to find a bell booster with bad batteries. If there is a faulted circuit that's attached to it, the lights will show you which one.
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kyle_engineer
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« Reply #13 on: Nov 28, 10, 11:36AM »

Currently there are no error lights lit, but as I recall the AC FAIL/CHARGE light was lit before. And obviously when I disconnected one of the NAC lines to measure the resistance, the NAC TBL light turned on. But other than that, there hasn't been any that I know of, and there are any now.

And to clearify, all of the errors I'm getting are for B01, and that the wire I found which goes to the FCPS. Before it goes to the FCPS, it goes through the wheelock module, and I'm not totally clear on what the purpose of the wheelock is. I know that is a sync'ing module, but I don't know why you would run a NAC into a sync'ing module, then into another sync'ing system... Huh? Anyway, once the wire leaves the AFP-200 it goes to the wheelock, and from there to the SYNC IN connections of the FCPS. There aren't any errors right now, but the alarm isn't going off yet, and I usually only see the errors when it's erroring, and I don't even think that the FCPS 24S6 has a history buffer... and definitely not one that's easily searched.

Also, the light on my FCPS panel are AC, GRND FAULT, BATT TRBL, NAC TRBL, AC FAIL/CHARGE. None of them are specific as to which NAC line is causing problems to my knowledge.
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kyle_engineer
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« Reply #14 on: Nov 29, 10, 11:39AM »

So I checked it while the alarm was sounding the trouble, and the FCPS did in fact light up the AC FAIL/CHARGE light. Don't know if that helps indicate what the exact problem is or not?
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