Elk M1, how to make it equivalent to a Vista 21iP

[chrisexv6]

I was all set on the Vista 21iP, with GSM and internet along with Alarmnet monitoring + TotalConnect 2.0, but now Im looking at the Elk and the extra functionality that comes with it.

I realize its more expensive, but Im having trouble figuring out EXACTLY how much more because I dont know exactly what is required to make an M1 equivalent to the 21iP.

I know I need the M1GSYS, but after that I was figuring an Uplink 2500 (for GSM), M1XSP to connect the Uplink, M1/Honeywell wireless receiver (I will most likely need a hybrid of wired and wireless, and am going with Honeywell sensors), and the M1 internet snap in device (I forget the model number).

Does that sound about right?

Next question is, who do I go through for uplink monitoring?  The Honeywell solution is pretty cut and dry, but uplink from an M1 seems a little harder to determine.  Any suggestions?

Thanks in advance.

-Chris

[DEL Installations]

Here's the scoop, side by side:

To make a 21iP equivalent to a M1G, you'll need to add a 4286, a 4229, a 6160V and a voice siren driver (for starts, not including the serial port and other functionality for HA).

To get a M1G to have the same communications ability as a 21iP, you'll need an XSP for the Uplink 2500, an additional power supply to provide enough power for the 2500 and provide additional standby time, and an XEP for ethernet.

As far as RF goes, for the Vista panels, I never used a keypad with an integrated receiver, always a separate 5882H, so IMHO, the comparison between a 21iP and M1G is a wash, and technically speaking, the receiver for the M1G is actually cheaper than a 5882H.

Here's the kicker, and you'll have to do the math, but the XEP automatically will give you web access to your panel and allow you to connect remotely and onsite for programming. It'll also allow you to send via IP to a CS as well as system generated email events....with no recurring cost. It'll also allow you to interface with a smartphone and appropriate app (free or up to $50, one time cost, depending on your platform).

The other part of this is you can have your panel monitored by anyone, both Uplink and standard dialer. IP would depend on the CS itself. As far as Uplink goes, it's no different than Total Connect, you need to work with a dealer for their service, but like I said, you can use them to send the information to any CS, not just a Alarmnet capable one.

Alarmnet services would only be supported by a CS that supports their services.

The whole thing with Total Connect vs. the M1G is the recurring costs vs. the initial investment in the hardware on the M1G. Think about how much you would pay for TC vs. the one tiime cost of the XEP.  Monitoring platform costs are about the same, with the difference being the flexibility of choosing who monitors the system.

Also, the M1G hardware can be flash updated, so if new functionality comes down the pike, it's easily updated, where the 21iP is a closed (chip) platform.

I've priced multiple systems side by side with the Vistas and M1G (or EZ8) and when you start adding equipment to make the Vistas close to the same in basic functionality, there really isn't too much of a difference.

Another thing in the case of the M1's is the ability to customize the overall functionality of the system using rules in the programming as well as what I use often, the F-keys on the keypads.

I've installed a ton more Vistas compared to M1's but the M1 is a far more robust platform when compared side by side.

[chrisexv6]

Thank you for the detailed explanation, it really helps.

Not getting into exact prices, but it looks like the XEP cost is equal to about 3 yrs of TotalConnect service.

The m1g setup equivalent to the 21ip is about double (1/3rd of that difference is in the system price, the rest is in the add on modules).  If I fight my house and try to run hardwire contacts I can save some $$$ by not requiring the Honeywell wireless adapter.

After about 8 yrs, then, not having to pay 5.00/month for TC ends up paying for the cost difference in the systems.

8 yrs is a long time, BUT I dont think Im going anywhere, and its 8 yrs (or more) where the system could technically do a lot more.

Ill just have to figure out if its worth it to me.........the home automation stuff is neat, but Im just not sure if I will take real advantage of it (Ive toyed with X10 before, and it actually works decently in my house but I never found a real need to have it.......its fun for xmas time, thats about it)

Thanks again.

-Chris

[DEL Installations]

It depends on what you really want to do with it. A Vista compared to an M1G is night and day in capabilities. The closer comparison would be a Vista to an EZ8. Same basic platform, just stripped a little (chart is on Elk's site).

The EZ8 can do everything the M1G can, just needs a little more hardware for the serial port for the XEP. Depends on how much you're going to end up expanding it.

As far as TC goes, it depends on what your dealer charges. The XEP offers more functionality compared to the TC services.

As I said, I've installed the Vista platforms and the M1/EZ8 platforms and while Honeywell/Ademco stuff is solid, the Elk stuff blows it away for functionality and capabilities. As I tell customers, with the Elk, if you can think of it, generally 99% of the time you can do it, where the Vistas are strictly limited to what's available in the panel.

[keithwins]

>> Not getting into exact prices, but it looks like the XEP cost is equal to about 3 yrs of TotalConnect service.

Since the SEP is available on Amazon.com for about $200, it doesn't seem like there's any big secret there. I don't know how much TotalConnect costs.

>> The EZ8 can do everything the M1G can, just needs a little more hardware for the serial port for the XEP. Depends on how much you're going to end up expanding it.

I had a long talk with Elk tech support today, and they convinced me that the Gold had a bunch of voice capability that couldn't be added to the EZ8 for any price. I'm a newbie (experienced contractor, new to alarms) so I'm just checking what I've heard with you more experienced people, I don't mean to be all "I'm so smart" or anything

[chrisexv6]

Actually I didnt list the prices mostly because I was going off Ebay buy it now prices, and some forums dont want people talking numbers (if you notice a lot of the posts here asking "how much for X system" are answered in generalities instead of actual numbers)

As far as M1G features vs the smaller model, Im not sure about that.  I figured I would go M1G if I actually want security AND automation, and Honeywell Vista if I just want security.  Seems the consensus in multiple places is that the M1G is worth the slightly extra price over the lower version.

[DEL Installations]

I don't comment on prices because the fact is a lot of "resellers' offer for essentially what a distributor may charge, however should you need warranty claims from Elk outside of the reseller's terms, you may find yourself out of luck.

I have heard Elk being fair to end users, as far as offering a pro-rated repair or costs towards a repaired board, but that is them being the nice folk in NC they are  

In my experience, the M1G is the platform to go with if at all possible, however some people will not need a serial port or ethernet module, let alone care about the voice features. In the cases I've used EZ8's, it's been usually to run multiple partitions and larger systems where I was limited in existing conductors between buildings, or in a couple of specific cases, I was attempting to standardize the platform across multiple sites and I could not get the end user to commit to an M1G on their studio, their shop and a storefront....as well as not needing 16 HW zones, where I could install a $50 Caddx receiver and 8 HW board zones and 2 HW keypad zones....took care of it.

The fact of the matter is once you start adding up the price of expanding an EZ8, you're close to the price of a M1G. The other facts are an EZ8 is more expensive than a 20P, however it's equivalent for a Vista is between a V-128 and V-250....and the prices for a side by side...very competitive (cheaper actually). A M1G's main competitor is HAI, and HAI's equivalent is the Omnipro II, where the fact of the matter is you can buy 3 M1G's for the same cost.  Granted the OPII has more serials, ethernet onboard, etc. but the M1G is modular...and when you price those side by side with the same options, serials, etc. they're competitive, with IMHO, the M1G has a bunch more flexibilty for RF and integrating directly with 3rd party devices easier.

The thing is, since I've installed all 3 manufacturers, Elk has a benefit as a dealer, the KP's touchscreens and expanders are the same across the entire platform. The EZ8 is doubtful to be outgrown by 95% of the installs out there. Barring some firmware to support the older CaddX receivers, you can update/upgrade firmware as needed.

Honeywell, the keypads are compatible across their entire line (except the 4110, which is a holdover from the 41 series, but a basic economy panel). Touchscreens are limited to compatible panels. The P series of panels only support the 4129 and 4229 expanders, and IMHO "zone doubling" is not really true expansion and over time, bound to cause trouble for troubleshooting and reliablity (past experiences with multiplexing). Once  you get into V-plex (V-32, V-40 and above) you're looking at 2 wire multiplex for expansion (4208, 4209's and 4193's) I wouldn't recommend people to use V-plex (multiplex) devices, contacts, etc. in a residential situation for multiple reasons.

HAI's panels are offered in "tiers" which aren't cheap, but the lower versions are hobbled with expansion and capabilities out of the box, the lesser ones don't support the options that people want and there's hardware limitations, where the series or touchsceens are only supported by certain panels. HAI is mainly popular with integrators that use it within larger systems such as Crestron or others because of the support and native interfaces with 3rd party hardware/sofware, which puts it into the non-DIY realm anyways. Almost every automator (Crestron, Elan, etc.) has some sort of interface with these panels when you get to a certain level anyways, but that's out of the DIY realm anyhow.

[chrisexv6]

Pardon for getting in the middle of a good ongoing discussion, but I had another question in regards to the uplink 2500 with an Elk M1.

Two, actually:

1.  If I get the uplink unit and the stuff to connect it to the M1, Im guessing Ill need a sim chip for the Uplink unit, and then someone to monitor it. 

As far as the sim chip goes Im thinking I can just buy a prepaid chip that has a "plan", 9.99 per month for unlimited US.  Since I dont have AT&T as a cell provider I cant just add another line, and I dont think loading up with prepaid cards is a good way to go (Im guessing the Uplink talks a fair amount so it would wipe out minutes pretty quickly)

Also, any suggestions on who to have monitor it?

2.  I see the Uplink 2500 supports *summary* data to the CS but not full data.  Is full data something I might want/need?  Can the Elk even support it?  If so, would I look at something like the Uplink 2550 instead?

As far as HAI goes, I blew the chance fo ra deal of a lifetime....someone had an OmiproII control panel + expansion panel + a few misc accessories on Ebay for 200.00 Buy It Now!!!!!  it was used, but for 200 bux you take the risk.

Thanks in advance.

-Chris

[DEL Installations]

1. The Uplink does not have a SIM nor does it accept one.

Uplink's data plan is all inclusive, so depending on how you have it set with your CS would determine the amount of signals you are "allowed". Some CS's don't want any signals outside of a test timer once a week or month, others don't care, and others do a per diem for signals or excessive signals.

Uplink only takes the data to their receivers and then retransmit to your CS via IP or an emulated digital communicator to your CS's receiver. As far as how the receiver gets the information, it's no different than if your panel was connected via a POTS line sending the data straight in. The CS sees no difference in the raw data transmitted.

2. The 2500, installed with an XSP is full data, as you are sending serial data straight into the serial port of the 2500. If you had a panel that could not send serial data, then you'd use a generic summary communicatior format.

Personally I wouldn't take the chance on a used OPII panel, too many things that could be wrong with that particular panel that isn't easily diagnosed....not like an easy V-20P or similar.

[chrisexv6]

As always, excellent info, thanks!

So just to be absolutely sure, all I need to do is hook up with a monitoring company and pay them for the Uplink connection...no SIM cards, no air time, etc.

Not sure if you CAN suggest any, but COULD you suggest any monitoring companies to use the Uplink with?

BTW I noticed you are in CT...Im also in CT.  Is there anyone local that can handle the Uplink?

Thanks again.

-Chris

[DEL Installations]

I am in the New Haven area, but might be able to help out. Shoot me a PM.

[chrisexv6]

Sent you a PM, thanks!