Gamewell/FCI E-3 strangeness.

[flush1]

So I want to pick everyone's brain for a minute. I have a customer whom was met with an unusual issue.  3 weeks ago the system went into trouble for an ASM -16 annunciator trouble alongside an lcd-E3 missing trouble. I had done a vendor meet with a game well/fci distributor and we replaced all 5 of the annunciator ACM 16's and the LCD E3 display...and on the othertechnicians recommendation we swapped out the CPU board and power supply. Every possible board was replaced including wiring and ribbon cables between the ASM cards
..yet ASM card 32 and the LCD E3 still intermittently go into trouble as missing for roughly 10 seconds.and restore.
Every 30mins or so. My only other theory is there is some interference/induction disrupting the eia 485 data. I put ferrite chokes on everything to no avail...anyone come across anything similar before? I'm leaning towards my theory because wifi and cellular reception goes flat 0 anywhere near the area where the FACP is located. Guess its time to break out the oscilloscope.

[DEL Installations]

Any high powered transmission equipment in the area, even walkie-talkies?

[rcifire]

I am assuming that the system has been installed for some time.

What has changed at the site?  Look for anything that may have moved any RFI/EMI devices/equipment or wiring closer to the system or its wiring.

How long has the system been installed?  There was a point in time where the ILI cards were having "power/comm" issues. It has since been rectified, but the quick fix was to use a power source other than the main power supply, ie. remote power supply, another power supply board, etc..

Good Luck!

[flush1]

According to the chief engineer of the high rise, nothing has changed.   3 years ago this happened once before he claims and every part was swapped out just like it was currently.   It is downtown chicago and a 25 story high rise so I am sure there is some form of high powered transmissions running through.   The ASM-16's are located in the door dress plate and the 24vdc and rs-485 wiring is no more than a foot long.   I have the terminal block grounded as per manufacturer specs, went as far as to install ferrite chokes on all power circuits and rs-485.   the last ASM-16 is terminated at jump1... this thing is driving me insane!  I've checked the ribbon cables for shorts, nothing!  All the boards are brand new, the ILI-MB, PM-9 power supply, all 5 ASM-16's and the LCD-E3.   The ground is solid, AC input is OK 122.4 VAC ground to neutral is clean @ 30-50mVAC.   I'm coming close to recommending a swap out with Notifier

[flush1]

And yes, this system has been installed for over 4 years.

[rcifire]

The wifi and cellular going flat would indicate to me more bad reception/sealed room than interference/induction, though this is possible.  Ferrite beads/chokes, IMHO, are not the cure all that many seem to think.

What are the addresses for the cards/annunciator?  Are they "binary bits" close?

I would recommend having you and the distributor getting together with FCI tech support and talking this out.  I am not a fan of the "shotgun" approach that was taken in this case.

Was shielded wire used?  Is it terminated properly?  Can't remember if it was an FCI requirement or not.  If so, try removing the shield termination and play with taking it to ground.  May make the situation worse, but may also help.

I know you " " on the Notifier, but until you figure out what is going on, the problem could even get worse, and I like both systems......

Good Luck!

[dilligaff]

I am not familiar with this panel, but if the cards in the system have addresses set by DIP switches you might try exercising the switches by turning each switch on and off several times to clear ant dirt or corrosion from the switch. Sometimes resistance build up in the switches can cause the board to go off address intermittently causing a trouble on one or more cards.

[flush1]

Thanks for all the input gentleman its much appreciated. And yes I agree the shotgun approach is not something I enjoy, my direct boss overruled me and had me try all that. I wanted to bring and oscilloscope in from day one...if I could see my square waves and no interference I wouldn't have to attempt everythingelse. Currently I took the issue into my own hands and wrote down every chip and board rev and firmware version and having game well/fci check for known issues.   And yes those cards are dip switch addressed 32 thru 37. However that wouldn't explain the LCD E3 display going missing too. I found some recall info on the fACP regard comm issues with old firmware but that pertained to the slc.

[rcifire]

Again....jogging the memory banks.....the LCD E3 is also addressed.

What flush said was what I was alluding to....

I will be quite frank.......I have been in the FA business for 22+ years, worked on MANY large installs and NEVER took a scope to the site except when Tech Support was onsite for a new manufacturer's product line.  In almost every case, the issues turned out to be wiring or device related.   

Good Luck!

[flush1]

Update:  so I found a recall bulletin for firmware issues on old game well FCI e3 panels which caused communication issues... the game well distributor we sub contracted denied any such issue, that is until I showed him the notice. Upgraded firmware on all 6 nodes and re wrote the database (apparently going from 1.3 to 2.8 the conversion software didn't like it!). Did a 100% test...panel has been clear for 48hrs! Phew. Busted out the oscilloscope just in case, nice square waves perfect peaks and clean drops. Thank goodness its over!