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Author Topic: PC1832 delay entry zone as instant during Stay? And operate PGM from zone?  (Read 758 times)
dalepres
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« on: Nov 30, 13, 10:26PM »

I have two questions; I hope it's OK in one thread.

I have a door switch on the front door I am connecting to my RFK5500  on the P/Z input.  That zone will be set as a delay zone so we can get in the house and disarm. 

My first question is can I program that zone as delay when away but instant for stay?  I couldn't find any hint in the manual.

My second question is about using a zone for a PGM output without having to go into alarm or possibly even armed.  I have an Elk 120 that I am programming with a "welcome" message to play full volume when someone approaches the house.  I have a DSC outdoor PIR detector that will detect approaching visitors or intruders.  When someone approaches I want to make sure we know before they kick the door in - even if we're asleep at night.  I want to have a few extra seconds of waking time by playing the "welcome" message full volume (24 watts).  We're in the country so this won't bother neighbors. 

So the question is, do I connect the outdoor PIR to the alarm panel and drive a PGM to trigger the Elk 120?  Since the 120 will also be driven by the panel for alarm and burglar messages, I am hoping I can get the outdoor PIR to trigger a PGM without being in alarm.  It would also be good to trigger the PGM even when not armed so the welcome message plays any time someone approaches whether the alarm system is armed or not.

I could get another Elk 120 for alarm conditions and use the first one triggered directly from the PIR, I suppose.  Are there cheaper solutions to a recorded amplified announcement if I don't need all the alarm stuff just for "welcome"?

I have many, many years both as an electronic engineer and the past 15 as a software engineer.  I can build the logic I need using an arduino or netduino but I'm hoping I don't have to.

Thanks!

Dale
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blakem
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« Reply #1 on: Dec 02, 13, 08:30AM »

Hi dalepres I am a fellow EE myself, For the first question there is no zone type as you describe, but what I would do is program the front door to an entry delay zone.  Then when you are at home use *9 no entry delay arming to arm the system instead of normal stay arming.  *9 will still bypass all STAY/AWAY zones, but will treat delay zones as instant.

As I understand you want one welcome message to play anytime the PIR is activated, right? To do that you can setup the outdoor PIR to a non-alarm zone type #26.  Then set the program output as a zone follower of the outdoor PIR zone.  If you also want the keypad chime you can turn on the chime in the zone attributes.

A quick glance at the ELK-120 and it looks to do exactly what you want so I would stick with it.  I am sure it have been heavily tested to ensure it will be reliable and do what you want it to do.
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brandonlive
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« Reply #2 on: Dec 02, 13, 09:37AM »

I agree with Blakem, but the one thing I wonder is whether your outdoor PIR will only be tripped once per visitor.  Depending on how it is designed and positioned and how someone approaches, I could see it opening and closing multiple times.  I think this could generate multiple welcome messages for one visitor, which might be annoying.  I guess you'll see whether or not that is an issue when you work on the install.  I am not familiar with the ELK-120 so am not sure if there is a way to program a "cooling off" period for the voice alert.  If not, I suppose you could put a relay on the outdoor motion sensor that prevents it from tripping more than once every three minutes or so.
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dalepres
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« Reply #3 on: Dec 03, 13, 09:34PM »

Thanks for the ideas, both of you.  I think they will solve the problem quite well.  I had to read the zone types and options more closely. 

There are so many options, I guess I just got bored before getting through all of them and didn't pay attention - well, that and not having the experience you guys have.

I don't know how the PIR is going to perform yet; I won't get to programming for a few more days.  It is designed to be mounted about 7 feet high and cover 60+ feet in range.  I live in the country and have a large front yard with lots of deer, foxes, coyotes, and miscellaneous little varmints passing through so I mounted it about 4 feet high, beside the rail to the steps to the front door.  On the porch, it is actually at feet level but you have to walk past it at waste level to get up the steps.  I'm hoping that will give me the coverage I need without tons of false alerts.
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dalepres
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« Reply #4 on: Jan 05, 14, 05:54PM »

Ok, I got the PIR and ELK-120 tested, configured, and, I thought, set up but I can't get the PGM output to trigger the ELK-120.

On the Elk, on the workbench, I can jumper from the VS- to ground and it plays the message I want it to play; perfect.

I took it to the equipment closet and hooked it to the PC1832 but I can't get a peep out of the Elk.

I started with PGM1 and the following settings:

*8 [install code]
[001] 01 00 26# (zone 3 is the outdoor PIR).
[009]29#
[501] (only option 3 is set and that was the default)
[551] (cleared all zones except 3)

When I walk test the PIR, the LEDs come on but the keypad chime doesn't work with zone type 26.  The PIR is working and the 1832 is seeing it because if I set the zone type to 03 then the chime does sound when I walk past the PIR.  When set to type 03, if I disconnect the wire from the panel I get a zone fault.  The Elk does not sound in any case of type 26 or type 03.

Thinking that maybe it was that the low current PGM couldn't drive the Elk, Switched it all to PGM2  ([009], [502], and [552] with the same settings as above.)  Still not a peep out of the Elk.  

I added a ground from EGnd in the alarm panel to the -12VDC GND on the Elk (they have separate power supplies).  Another test and still not a peep out of the Elk.

With everything set up and powered still, I grounded the pin on PGM2 with a jumper and the Elk played my message.  

This tells me that the 1832 is not grounding the PGM.  The manual says that the PGM is "open" when not active, by which I assume they mean it's an open collector.  Either the operation/programming is not right to cause the PGM to go to ground when zone 3 is activated or the board is bad.

Any suggestions on what else I might try?

Thanks,

Dale
« Last Edit: Jan 05, 14, 06:08PM by dalepres » Logged
blakem
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« Reply #5 on: Jan 06, 14, 06:33AM »

It looks like you assigned PGM1 to partition 3 when you modified section [551].   If you are using partition 1 then try setting it back to 1.

If you want the chime to activate for the zone type 26 for zone #3, then toggle ON option 3 in section [103].  Make sure you program zone #3 in section [001] back to a zone definition of 26 before modifying the zone attributes in section [103].

You are right about needing to make the ground common between both power supplies to make it work.  If you had a relay available you could power the coil from the alarm panel supply and use the contacts to trigger the ELK from the ELK power supply.  That way you could keep them electrically isolated.
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dalepres
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« Reply #6 on: Jan 08, 14, 04:00AM »

Thanks for the reply.

From ste statement quoted below, I understood that 551 to 564 program the PGM output partition associations for most PGM types but for zone followers they are used to set the zone. 

Quote
Zone Follower PGM types 29 and 35-41 are used to assign specific zones to the PGM.

This would make sense since zones are assigned to partitions so having a zone assignment automatically includes a partition association.  Otherwise, where would I set the zone associations for a zone follower PGM?

I verified option 3 is on for section [103].  My other zones chime on violation and zone 3 chimes on violation if I set the zone type to 03.  If I set the zone type back to 26 and then confirm that [103] option 3 is on, I don't get a chime.  Set it back to zone type 03 and I get a chime.  That almost sounds like a feature rather than something wrong -but I would like to figure it out if possible.  As an alternative, I am considering connecting it to the doorbell along with the outside speaker.
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blakem
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« Reply #7 on: Jan 09, 14, 06:37AM »

Quote
Zone Follower PGM types 29 and 35-41 are used to assign specific zones to the PGM.

You are right, I must have gotten mixed up but yes for that PGM type the parition assignment acts as the bitmask for the zone follower.

I verified option 3 is on for section [103].  My other zones chime on violation and zone 3 chimes on violation if I set the zone type to 03.  If I set the zone type back to 26 and then confirm that [103] option 3 is on, I don't get a chime.  Set it back to zone type 03 and I get a chime.  That almost sounds like a feature rather than something wrong
You are correct it is a feature for the zone type.  I understood that you wanted the chime on so you changed it to an instant type zone.  I was just explaining how to turn on the chime for the non-alarm zone type.

It looks like you have setup everything correctly.  I read on your other post that you have a PC1832 right?  Do you know the version number?  I would assume all PC1832 boards have the zone follower feature but you never know.

I would try and hook an LED and about a 680 ohm resistor between +AUX and PGM1.  See if you can get it to light up.  If you can't then the problem must be with the panel.
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dalepres
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« Reply #8 on: Jan 09, 14, 08:55AM »

Thanks.  I'll try the pull-up resistor. 
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blakem
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« Reply #9 on: Jan 09, 14, 11:50AM »

You could do a pull up resistor in case it is just floating since it is an open collector, but i ment use a current limiting resistor and an led to test the output.  A voltmeter would also work.
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dalepres
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« Reply #10 on: Jan 10, 14, 09:04AM »

Gotcha.  That's a good plan, too.  I'll try it.
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dalepres
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« Reply #11 on: Jan 12, 14, 09:53PM »

I got it working to drive the Elk-120 from the DSC PGM2 for now using a relay driven by PGM2 to switch +12v to the Elk to play the message I wanted.

The zone follower works right but the panel won't beep on the zone follower set to 26 zone type.  That's disappointing but I can manage that; I'll drive a doorbell with the relay or something like that.

One more question, if I can ask it here.  Let me know if it should be a new thread.

The only problem with the Elk setup is that it plays the voice welcome message every type someone goes in our out of the house.  Is there an option so I can make a PGM active as a zone follower but only when the panel is armed?

 Can a zone be set not only to not trigger the bell but to also not call the monitoring service
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dalepres
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« Reply #12 on: Jan 12, 14, 10:04PM »

I forgot to add some details of how I fixed it. 

Even though I tied the grounds together for the two separate power supplies (the DSC panel and the Elk-120 have separate supplies), I could not get the PGM to pull a line on the Elk low.

I put in a relay, trying to drive it from the Elk power supply pulled low by the common ground between the two and that didn't work.

I ended up driving a relay from the DSC PGM, using the common to NO connections on the relay to provide a positive signal to the Elk-120.

Just a side-note, in case it might save someone some frustration, I was going to make a solid state switch to drive the elk using a 2N3904 (actually a couple of them) but I realized every workable configuration for a transistor switch required at least one transistor to be on statically in order to switch from the low-going DSC to a positive trigger on the Elk.  That means that if the transistor fails open my voice alert plays forever.  In the end, the relay appears to be the best solution.
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blakem
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« Reply #13 on: Jan 13, 14, 07:35AM »

That is great you got the two systems integrated. 

The only problem with the Elk setup is that it plays the voice welcome message every type someone goes in our out of the house.  Is there an option so I can make a PGM active as a zone follower but only when the panel is armed?

There is no way to accomplish this solely by internal programming but you can by using a jumper wire.  You can create an automatic bypass of zone #3 when the system is disarmed.  Put a jumper from PGM1 to Z3.  Then program PGM1 to type 05 System Armed Status in section 009.  Now you need to invert the logic of PGM1 so turn OFF option #3 in section 503. 

PGM1 should now be at ground when disarmed which closes zone 3 even if motion detector opens.  When the alarm is armed, PGM1 switches to open and has no effect on the zone 3 input.  So now if the motion detector opens, zone 3 will show the open and play your message along with the keypad chime.

The zone follower works right but the panel won't beep on the zone follower set to 26 zone type.  That's disappointing but I can manage that; I'll drive a doorbell with the relay or something like that.
It will but you have to enable the chime.  That is what I was saying on a previous post.  To enable the chime turn ON option #3(for chime) in installer programming section 103 assuming the zone is 3.

In the end, the relay appears to be the best solution.
I think an optocoupler might work great for this situation.  Then you won't have to use a mechanical relay and the two systems stay electrically isolated.
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dalepres
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« Reply #14 on: Jan 13, 14, 08:44PM »

That is great you got the two systems integrated. 

Quote
The only problem with the Elk setup is that it plays the voice welcome message every type someone goes in our out of the house.  Is there an option so I can make a PGM active as a zone follower but only when the panel is armed?

There is no way to accomplish this solely by internal programming but you can by using a jumper wire.  You can create an automatic bypass of zone #3 when the system is disarmed.  Put a jumper from PGM1 to Z3.  Then program PGM1 to type 05 System Armed Status in section 009.  Now you need to invert the logic of PGM1 so turn OFF option #3 in section 503. 

PGM1 should now be at ground when disarmed which closes zone 3 even if motion detector opens.  When the alarm is armed, PGM1 switches to open and has no effect on the zone 3 input.  So now if the motion detector opens, zone 3 will show the open and play your message along with the keypad chime.

That sounds like a great solution to the problem.  I'll try it out.  Thanks.

Quote
The zone follower works right but the panel won't beep on the zone follower set to 26 zone type.  That's disappointing but I can manage that; I'll drive a doorbell with the relay or something like that.
It will but you have to enable the chime.  That is what I was saying on a previous post.  To enable the chime turn ON option #3(for chime) in installer programming section 103 assuming the zone is 3.

Are you sure of this?  If so then there is either a software version difference between my panel and your experience or my panel is broken.  When you change a zone type, the configured options are lost as the system sets defaults for the new zone type - thus your statement of having to turn on chime again for the zone is accurate - but I have done that.  Even though I turn it on for the zone, I still get no chime when the zone type is 26.

Quote
In the end, the relay appears to be the best solution.
I think an optocoupler might work great for this situation.  Then you won't have to use a mechanical relay and the two systems stay electrically isolated.

Another good idea.  I think in the grand scheme of things, even a transistor is more reliable than a relay but the failure modes of the relay vary so the likelihood of a failure that leaves my voice alert running constantly is very low.

And not being as sensitive, when off, to lightning or power surges, the only failure mode I would worry about in the relay would be sticking relay contacts in the activated position.  Since this is low voltage and low current, it is unlikely unless a surge or lightning hit occurs while it is on.  The solid state transistor is inherently much more reliable than the mechanical relay - until you add in our crappy power where I live.  I lose things on UPS or surge protectors routinely - though not near as often as those not so protected. 

A solid-state opto-isolator would have the same most-common failure mode: a short.  But lacking such a failure, it would be much more reliable than the relay.  Of course a good relay should be good for a million plus closures.

It's a tough call.  If I am going to use a solid-state solution, though, I think I have to build in more redundancy.  At least I would have to put timing in to turn it off after whatever is the legal time that an alarm system signal without resetting.  Is that 15 minutes or something - depending on locality?
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