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Author Topic: Ademco 4219 8 Zone Expander Supervised?  (Read 5552 times)
magoojr79
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« on: Nov 19, 08, 08:48PM »

I have been playing around with a Vista 20p and came across an issue that concerns me.  I installed a 4219 Zone Expander and programmed several of the new zones.  When I open the new zones, the system goes into alarm properly.  When I disconnect the 4219 Zone Expander, I don't get any troubles for the missing zones, I don't get a check message for the missing 4219.  Long story short, the system could be disabled by cutting one wire.

I read through the manual and it specifically states that the 4229 Zone Expander / Relay module is supervised by the alarm panel, nothing is mentioned about the 4219 Zone Expander.

Has anyone tried using a EOL relay (like the ones used to supervise power to 4 wire smokes) to supervise the power to a 4219 as a way of monitoring the wire between the alarm panel and remote zone expanders?
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Security101
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Old Alarm Guy Honeywell Ademco Compass


« Reply #1 on: Nov 19, 08, 09:12PM »

When you open the zone does it show a fault on the keypad? Have you fully programmed each or at least one zone for that board?

The panel auto recognises the 4219 when zones are programmed in those slots and set to "AUX WIRE"

That is a supervised module and should show troubles as you expected.

I cant think of a reason that it wouldn't check, I'll keep thinking Undecided

Jim
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magoojr79
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« Reply #2 on: Nov 19, 08, 10:47PM »

Yes, programming seems to be all correct, the zones on the 4219 all function properly and produce the expected messages on the keypad for open and short.  I get nothing when I disconnect the 4219 from the Vista 20p.

From the installation manual (Notice, the 4219 is not listed):

• Supervision: 4204 and 4229 modules are supervised against removal. The module’s
device address is displayed as follows if a module is disconnected from the control’s
terminals, or if the module cover is removed and the tamper jumper is installed:
Alpha: CHECK xx Wire Expansion
FAULT xx Wire Expansion
ALARM xx Wire Expansion
Fixed-Glass: lxx (or 91 if field *199 set for 2-digit display)
where “xx is the module’s address.
• If communication/tamper failure occurs on a device with zones
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magoojr79
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« Reply #3 on: Nov 19, 08, 10:48PM »

Also, with the jumper set to activate the tamper supervision, I do get the Check XX message.
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Security101
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Old Alarm Guy Honeywell Ademco Compass


« Reply #4 on: Nov 19, 08, 11:03PM »

I was reading the install sheet for that again and saw

Quote
Communication to
the module is supervised so that it cannot be disconnected
from the keypad wiring without detection by the control. If
the wiring is cut, a tamper alarm or signal will result, to
indicate that this device (and possibly other similarly
connected devices) has become inoperative.

I know I have had checks for this before (it's been a while) and I guess I just figured it would to date. I'll have to put one on the bench maybe tomorrow and see what happens.

It may only do that when the tamper is set to on, you say that works?

Are you OK with leaving the tamper on? Or is there a reason you don't want it on?

If your wanting it open for some reason, you could glue just the magnet (not the plastic mount) to the reed switch on the board. That would supervise the circuits and board, but would leave it open overall...

What do you think?

Jim
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magoojr79
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« Reply #5 on: Nov 19, 08, 11:11PM »

Sorry, that's not what I meant.  The tamper function works if I remove the cover, but disconnecting the 4219 from the Vista 20p whether the tamper is enabled or disabled doesn't produce any troubles.
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Security101
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Old Alarm Guy Honeywell Ademco Compass


« Reply #6 on: Nov 19, 08, 11:22PM »

I could be wrong but I think some thing's up (or down as the case may be)

I feel that it should normally be supervised and I have had supervision issues in the past and have always had a "check 107" (first expander) appear until the problem is solved.

I'm not sure why yours is not if it is fully programmed and showing correct activity on your keypads.

I will call dealer tech tomorrow to see if were checking everything right...

Jim
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"It's a good time for BadGuys, and a bad time for GoodGuys" (Me)

Perseverance:  "Continuing in a course of action without regard to discouragement, opposition, or previous failure" (Will Smith)
Security101
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Old Alarm Guy Honeywell Ademco Compass


« Reply #7 on: Nov 19, 08, 11:36PM »

Alright, I just pulled power from one of mine and got the check signal.

Mine works! Shocked

Here's a thought, have you rebooted the panel since connection of the 4219? (pull transformer/battery - re-hook transformer/battery)

Expander's some times need a reboot to clear issues, and maybe it just isn't completely recognising it yet Undecided

Jim
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"It's a good time for BadGuys, and a bad time for GoodGuys" (Me)

Perseverance:  "Continuing in a course of action without regard to discouragement, opposition, or previous failure" (Will Smith)
magoojr79
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« Reply #8 on: Nov 21, 08, 03:55PM »

Did you pull just the power or all four conductors?
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Security101
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Old Alarm Guy Honeywell Ademco Compass


« Reply #9 on: Nov 21, 08, 04:50PM »

Yes - and I did speak to our dealer tech and that is suppose  to do what mine did - instant "Check 107"

Reboot...

Let me know what happens...

Jim
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"It's a good time for BadGuys, and a bad time for GoodGuys" (Me)

Perseverance:  "Continuing in a course of action without regard to discouragement, opposition, or previous failure" (Will Smith)
Security101
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Old Alarm Guy Honeywell Ademco Compass


« Reply #10 on: Nov 21, 08, 05:23PM »

One other thing, this will be a "panel issue" and not an expander issue.

Jim
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"It's a good time for BadGuys, and a bad time for GoodGuys" (Me)

Perseverance:  "Continuing in a course of action without regard to discouragement, opposition, or previous failure" (Will Smith)
magoojr79
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« Reply #11 on: Nov 24, 08, 11:16PM »

It's funny, tonight I tried a 4229 zone expander / relay that I got from eBay.  I addressed it the same as the 4219 that it replaced and when I disconnected it I got a trouble for each programmed zone and a check 107.  Reinstalled the 4219 and powered up the alarm panel, disconnected the 4219 and nothing.

I also bought a 4204 relay module on eBay.  So I defaulted the panel, programmed a few on board zones, a few zones on the 4229 (107), a few zones on the 4219 (108) and a few relays on the 4204 (112).  When I disconnect each module one at a time or all at once I get the missing 107, 108, 112 messages and troubles on each programmed zone just like I should.

What could I have possibly done in the program for it not to work the first time?  Is this just one of those unexplained alarm gremlins that I have run across in the field?
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Alarmtech
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« Reply #12 on: Nov 24, 08, 11:20PM »

Your 20P never liked the first 4219 and was actually glad when it was gone, so it didnt complain. Thats the technical answer...really.
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Security101
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Old Alarm Guy Honeywell Ademco Compass


« Reply #13 on: Nov 24, 08, 11:21PM »

I'm bettin more on the gremlin's...

Where did you get the panel?

Jim
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"It's a good time for BadGuys, and a bad time for GoodGuys" (Me)

Perseverance:  "Continuing in a course of action without regard to discouragement, opposition, or previous failure" (Will Smith)
magoojr79
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« Reply #14 on: Nov 25, 08, 03:33PM »

I bought the panel as a kit on sale at ADI a couple of months ago to play around with at home.  I wanted to teach myself how to program the panel and install the panel as a hobby at first, maybe start working for a residential installer / tech on the side sometime down the road. 

At work I support Bosch / Radionics burg and fire systems and Firelite 9200, EST 2, and EST QS fire systems.  I don't anticipate every seeing these systems installed in a home.  I do some of the programming on the fire systems when needed, but my company's home office does all of the Bosch programming remotely so I have little experience with it.

I picked the Ademco Vista-20p panel to play with because from the reading that I've done online it seemed like a widely used panel.  I really liked what I read about the Elk panel, but it would have been an expensive hobby to start Smiley
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